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GloryMXE7
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 40
Location: somewhere so secret even i dont know it exists
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 Posted: 07 Nov 2009 02:38:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kllrnohj wrote: |
Why is Christ-spoken passages now the deciding element? The Catholic Church still deals in the Old Testament as well, which is way easier to target. |
both the new testament and the old testament should be taken into account, by targeting only one part your argument only applies to that testament not the Bible as a whole since the bible is basically two parts.
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elrunethe2nd
Power User
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Location: In my infernal forge...
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2009 04:29:34 pm Post subject: |
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Out of interest, while you are on this roll, sell a head off Mount Rushmore, Statue of Liberty island and the Library of Congress, The Louvre, the Eiffel Tower and every other culturally linked creation occupying space. Destroy culture and opt for a Orwellian future of monotony.
Its ridiculous, and fanciful to speculate on selling things with such huge significance to so many, and entirely not feasible.
And I can bet top dollar you probably wouldn't want to see all American relics sold either.
As said before, last time I checked USA has the dole to support the unemployed and unpaid. Somalia, Cambodia and all these other poor places sure as hell don't. I know which I consider the more serious situation, and that in undeniable.
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Kllrnohj
 PH34R |\/|3
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 7165
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2009 10:10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| elrunethe2nd wrote: | Out of interest, while you are on this roll, sell a head off Mount Rushmore, Statue of Liberty island and the Library of Congress, The Louvre, the Eiffel Tower and every other culturally linked creation occupying space. Destroy culture and opt for a Orwellian future of monotony.
Its ridiculous, and fanciful to speculate on selling things with such huge significance to so many, and entirely not feasible. |
The "owners" of those structures don't preach to live humbly, sell your possessions, and feed the hungry, now do they?
Yet another pathetic attempt at a rebuttal by elrunethe2nd, yay! 
| Quote: | | As said before, last time I checked USA has the dole to support the unemployed and unpaid. Somalia, Cambodia and all these other poor places sure as hell don't. I know which I consider the more serious situation, and that in undeniable. |
Uh, just an FYI, but the Vatican isn't in the USA nor owned by the USA nor in any way linked to the USA.
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magicdanw
Advanced Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 281
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2009 10:49:32 pm Post subject: |
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| elfprince13 wrote: | | Remember that in America, Christians give more to charity than any other demographic. I hate to toot my own horn, but our family was audited by the IRS a few years ago because they were pissed at how much we were giving to charity. |
Just thought I'd point out that in America, there's also more Christians than any other individual religious demographic. Statistics fail?  |
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comicIDIOT
Photographer
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 1533
Location: www.comicidiot.com
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| Posted: 07 Nov 2009 11:22:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Kllrnohj wrote: | | Quote: | | As said before, last time I checked USA has the dole to support the unemployed and unpaid. Somalia, Cambodia and all these other poor places sure as hell don't. I know which I consider the more serious situation, and that in undeniable. |
Uh, just an FYI, but the Vatican isn't in the USA nor owned by the USA nor in any way linked to the USA. |
You are aware elrune acknowledges this, right? His example in your first quote he states that if we - as a human race not a nation - sell the Vatican and it's possessions, why not sell a head from Rushmore, Eiffel tower, etc.
The last quote of his is saying that the USA doesn't need to sell it's popular attractions because it has the ability to pay the unemployed/unpaid while third world countries cannot, not that the USA owns or in any way tied to the Vatican.
No where in his post is he tying the Vatican to the States.
--
Edited the first paragraph for clarity.
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Last edited by comicIDIOT on 08 Nov 2009 03:23:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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elrunethe2nd
Power User
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Location: In my infernal forge...
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 01:25:49 am Post subject: |
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ComicIDIOT probably summed that up better than I could have there. So thanks to him.
Also;
| Quote: | | Yet another pathetic attempt at a rebuttal by elrunethe2nd, yay! |
I leave your [redacted] out of my arguments, so kindly remain a degree of objectivity and non-personal comments in yours also.
Especially when a few of your arguments or as Wikipedia could call them "Sweeping Statements" got rebutted quite well.
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Kllrnohj
PH34R |\/|3
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 7165
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 06:10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| comicIDIOT wrote: | | You are aware elrune acknowledges this, right? His example in your first quote he states that if we - as a human race not a nation - sell the Vatican and it's possessions, why not sell a head from Rushmore, Eiffel tower, etc. |
Yes, I was aware of his statement, I was pointing out that it is *wrong*. The point of the video is that the CATHOLIC CHURCH, which preaches to live humbly, is not doing so. It says nothing of the human race NOR of any specific nation. So again, logic fail, yay!
Your name is quite fitting, by the way.
| Quote: | | The last quote of his is saying that the USA doesn't need to sell it's popular attractions because it has the ability to pay the unemployed/unpaid while third world countries cannot, not that the USA owns or in any way tied to the Vatican. |
Uh, no. Apparently neither of you understand how unemployment benefits work in the USA.
| elrunethe2nd wrote: | | I leave your [redacted] out of my arguments, so kindly remain a degree of objectivity and non-personal comments in yours also. |
Wow, clever, think that up on your own?
| Quote: | | Especially when a few of your arguments or as Wikipedia could call them "Sweeping Statements" got rebutted quite well. |
No they weren't.
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elrunethe2nd
Power User
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Location: In my infernal forge...
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 06:37:47 pm Post subject: |
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He he he.
You just admitted you HAVE unemployment benefits.
Which, of course, your country does.
| Quote: | | has the ability to pay the unemployed/unpaid while third world countries cannot |
Ability doesn't imply that it does, although it should. Given the size and relative prosperity levels of USA to other countries.
Your sweeping statement that all wars were caused by religion was a falsehood in the entirety.
I disproved it with the two greatest wars known to man.
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GloryMXE7
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 40
Location: somewhere so secret even i dont know it exists
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 07:13:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kllrnohj wrote: | | comicIDIOT wrote: | | You are aware elrune acknowledges this, right? His example in your first quote he states that if we - as a human race not a nation - sell the Vatican and it's possessions, why not sell a head from Rushmore, Eiffel tower, etc. |
Yes, I was aware of his statement, I was pointing out that it is *wrong*. The point of the video is that the CATHOLIC CHURCH, which preaches to live humbly, is not doing so. It says nothing of the human race NOR of any specific nation. So again, logic fail, yay!
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wait so according to you only the catholic church can be hypocritical
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elfprince13
Hobo Extraordinaire
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 6446
Location: A galaxy far far away......
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Ultimate Dev'r
RIP DIO
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7024
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 11:03:32 pm Post subject: |
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| elfprince13 wrote: | | This thread is being edited for post-facto civility. I'll make my intelligent reply when I'm done with that. |
No, you're abusing your admin powers defending your religion.
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Kllrnohj
PH34R |\/|3
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 7165
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 11:36:33 pm Post subject: |
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| elrunethe2nd wrote: | He he he.
You just admitted you HAVE unemployment benefits.
Which, of course, your country does. |
Uh, yes? Its also entirely irrelevant to this thread... Not sure why you are laughing like you actually pulled off a win of sort - because, of course, you haven't.
| GloryMXE7 wrote: | | wait so according to you only the catholic church can be hypocritical |
Are you capable of reading comprehension in any form whatsoever?
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Last edited by Kllrnohj on 10 Nov 2009 11:41:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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elfprince13
Hobo Extraordinaire
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 6446
Location: A galaxy far far away......
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| Posted: 08 Nov 2009 11:42:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultimate Dev'r wrote: | | elfprince13 wrote: | | This thread is being edited for post-facto civility. I'll make my intelligent reply when I'm done with that. |
No, you're abusing your admin powers defending your religion. |
Mostly I deleted pictures of mutilated people, and unnecessary use of the term "faggot"
| magicdanw wrote: | | elfprince13 wrote: | | Remember that in America, Christians give more to charity than any other demographic. I hate to toot my own horn, but our family was audited by the IRS a few years ago because they were pissed at how much we were giving to charity. |
Just thought I'd point out that in America, there's also more Christians than any other individual religious demographic. Statistics fail? |
That was intended to be a per-capita average.
| elrunethe2nd wrote: | Your sweeping statement that all wars were caused by religion was a falsehood in the entirety.
I disproved it with the two greatest wars known to man. |
It's worth noting that more Christians (45.5 million) were killed for their faith in the 20th century than in the previous 19 centuries combined (about 65% of the total), and the majority of these were killed at the hands of atheist regimes.
| Quote: | | "Good" is letting others live their lives, "evil" is forcing harmful (mental or physical) actions upon them. |
Why? What is the importance of a human life that it's even relevant whether you let someone live it un-interfered, or force harmful actions upon them? If you're just a meat sack, or a shambling pile of molecules, I have no basis for caring what happens to you, or what I do to you, other than whether or not it might have a negative impact on myself.
| Quote: | | As for saving people, who says they are un-evolutionary |
Survival of the fittest, or most adaptable. If your mutations aren't working out, we don't need you to pass those genes along. If you get in a car accident, you we were probably too stupid to be driving a car, or your reflexes were too poor to avoid it, and we'll be better off having someone else pass on their genes instead. Darwin awards carried to the natural conclusion. Improving the human race by removing yourself form it.
| Quote: | | None? Embryonic stem cells isn't the only issue (but I'm for it). Things like cloning and other research (which doesn't cost any lives) is also staunchly opposed by the church. |
Cloning tends to raise the same issues as embryonic stem cell research, since, as far as I'm aware, cloning requires an embryo. I'm not sure what "other research" you're referring to though.
| Quote: | | There are other potential points. For example, when blood flows through the embryo's veins (which was one of the church's old markers for when life begins, by the way). |
Fair enough, but again, we don't know, and if you believe in the sanctity of human life, why gamble when there are other sources?
| Quote: | | To me, the difference is intent. If an embryo is fertilized and allowed to grow with the intent of being killed in a week, then I'm cool with it. I don't see it as killing life at all - no more than we consider killing bacteria killing life. |
The highway to hell is paved with good intentions (for the record, not quoting that as serious theology, but as a general principle)
| kllrnohj wrote: | | Why is Christ-spoken passages now the deciding element? The Catholic Church still deals in the Old Testament as well, which is way easier to target. |
Because that's what I challenged you to do, and because it's teachings of Christ that I'm interested in.
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Kllrnohj
PH34R |\/|3
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 7165
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2009 01:10:30 am Post subject: |
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| elfprince13 wrote: | | Why? What is the importance of a human life that it's even relevant whether you let someone live it un-interfered, or force harmful actions upon them? If you're just a meat sack, or a shambling pile of molecules, I have no basis for caring what happens to you, or what I do to you, other than whether or not it might have a negative impact on myself. |
Why? Simple. Survival of the species
| Quote: | | Survival of the fittest, or most adaptable. If your mutations aren't working out, we don't need you to pass those genes along. If you get in a car accident, you we were probably too stupid to be driving a car, or your reflexes were too poor to avoid it, and we'll be better off having someone else pass on their genes instead. Darwin awards carried to the natural conclusion. Improving the human race by removing yourself form it. |
I'm going to ram a semi through your house while you are sleeping, seriously injuring you, and then shrug it off saying you weren't tough enough.
| Quote: | | Cloning tends to raise the same issues as embryonic stem cell research, since, as far as I'm aware, cloning requires an embryo. I'm not sure what "other research" you're referring to though. |
If you are cloning an entire person, you do need an embryo, but you aren't killing it, and thus doesn't have the same moral objections of embryonic stem cell.
| Quote: | | Fair enough, but again, we don't know, and if you believe in the sanctity of human life, why gamble when there are other sources? |
Me > them. 
| Quote: | | The highway to hell is paved with good intentions (for the record, not quoting that as serious theology, but as a general principle) |
Yes, but it is a far cry from harvesting stem cells to preserve life to going around kicking puppies. Just saying.
| Quote: | | Because that's what I challenged you to do, and because it's teachings of Christ that I'm interested in. |
And I just like making fun of your beliefs. Hence why these always go in circles.
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elrunethe2nd
Power User
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 359
Location: In my infernal forge...
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2009 02:18:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I just like making fun of your beliefs. |
I'm not Catholic myself, but I like to think there's more to life than cynicism and criticality of others.
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elfprince13
Hobo Extraordinaire
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 6446
Location: A galaxy far far away......
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2009 09:01:35 am Post subject: |
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| Kllrnohj wrote: | Why? Simple. Survival of the species
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Me > them. |
The species will do just fine, regardless of what I do (that doesn't involve launching a nuclear firestorm). Morality governs the relationship between individuals, and my point is exactly what you end up saying later in your post. Morality from your definition is now based entirely on what serves your own needs (does it help me? can I be amused by this without negative consequence?), and everything else is secondary.
| Quote: | | I'm going to ram a semi through your house while you are sleeping, seriously injuring you, and then shrug it off saying you weren't tough enough. |
And why would that have any moral consequence if you think you can do that without being caught? Why should anyone care? You're not rebutting my point, you're illustrating it.
| Quote: | | If you are cloning an entire person, you do need an embryo, but you aren't killing it, and thus doesn't have the same moral objections of embryonic stem cell. |
Research into cloning is usually for therapeutic purposes which doesn't involve letting the embryo grow into adulthood.
| Quote: |
And I just like making fun of your beliefs. Hence why these always go in circles. |
And with that out in the open, you've admitted that this thread serves no further intellectual purpose, and indeed has served no purpose other than a big trolling attempt. I guess it doesn't really need to stay open. No crocodile tears from you about freedom of expression, or how I'm just being defensive about my religion. You've made it clear that you have no interest in either, and further complaints from you in this arena aren't going to be taken seriously.
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KermMartian
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 32308
Location: Earth, Sol, Milky Way
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2009 09:05:11 am Post subject: |
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You may disagree with elrunethe2nd, and he may be trolling, but I believe the other members were trying to hold a halfway-intelligent conversation, so I have unlocked this. If you disagree, feel free to relock.
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Kllrnohj
PH34R |\/|3
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 7165
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| Posted: 09 Nov 2009 07:46:18 pm Post subject: |
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| elfprince13 wrote: | | The species will do just fine, regardless of what I do (that doesn't involve launching a nuclear firestorm). Morality governs the relationship between individuals, and my point is exactly what you end up saying later in your post. Morality from your definition is now based entirely on what serves your own needs (does it help me? can I be amused by this without negative consequence?), and everything else is secondary. |
Yes, but helping the species does help me. Improving modern medicine has the potential to help ME. "Morality" helps ME (by keeping other people from doing "evil" unto ME).
Religion can easily be seen as equally selfish. Your help others because you believe in a heaven and hell and want to save *YOURSELF*. All forms of good deeds can easily be seen as selfish.
| Quote: | | And why would that have any moral consequence if you think you can do that without being caught? Why should anyone care? You're not rebutting my point, you're illustrating it. |
It wouldn't. I was disputing your claim that someone being seriously injured is somehow their fault and/or an evolutionary defect. If someone crashes into me, you can be certain that I would happily murder embryos if it kept me alive.
| Quote: | | Research into cloning is usually for therapeutic purposes which doesn't involve letting the embryo grow into adulthood. |
True, but the cells also stay alive in whatever animal they are placed. Thus life is not ended, but instead merges with another life.
| Quote: | | And with that out in the open, you've admitted that this thread serves no further intellectual purpose, and indeed has served no purpose other than a big trolling attempt. I guess it doesn't really need to stay open. No crocodile tears from you about freedom of expression, or how I'm just being defensive about my religion. You've made it clear that you have no interest in either, and further complaints from you in this arena aren't going to be taken seriously. |
Still serves an intellectual purpose, just one that will never come to any form of a conclusion.
Also, why would you think that locking a thread would stop me from responding?
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calc84maniac
Epic z80 roflpwner
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 1300
Location: The ex-planet Pluto
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2009 12:15:21 am Post subject: |
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| Kllrnohj wrote: | | Your help others because you believe in a heaven and hell and want to save *YOURSELF*. |
And others.
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elfprince13
Hobo Extraordinaire
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 6446
Location: A galaxy far far away......
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2009 11:26:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Religion can easily be seen as equally selfish. Your help others because you believe in a heaven and hell and want to save *YOURSELF*. All forms of good deeds can easily be seen as selfish. |
Also, because a personal relationship with the omnipotent and loving creator of the universe can have benefits in this life, and it's nice to share those with people. Also, if someone is willing to suffer death to save your life its a bit of a slap in the face to have that knowledge and ignore it. Showing respect to other human beings becomes a matter of showing respect for their creator.
| Kllrnohj wrote: | | "Morality" helps ME (by keeping other people from doing "evil" unto ME). |
This is the only point I really cared about. Why are you in here debating someone else's moral principles when your own consist of "I'll do whatever pleases me, as long as I think I can do it without getting in trouble" ? Something about throwing around terms like "clearly evil" strikes me as hypocrisy in this case.
| Quote: | | True, but the cells also stay alive in whatever animal they are placed. Thus life is not ended, but instead merges with another life. |
that's honestly one of the few reasonable arguments I've heard on the subject, but doesn't really convince me to move beyond "err on the side of caution"
| Quote: | | Still serves an intellectual purpose, just one that will never come to any form of a conclusion. |
If you describe self entertainment as "intellectual purpose"
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