Finally A Good Religious Debate...

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grr. I really wish that thread could have stayed open, but...
There were a few problems that happened;

1a) It was off topic. Although that was partially my fault for helping to drag it off topic, there was also another problem here
1b) if that was sufficiently off topic to constitute a problem, it could have been rectified before it reached 6 pages

2) It began to be treated more as an argument than as a debate. (debates are more organized, calm, and have a lot of detail in each argument/ counter-argument.) Admittedly, the internet is not the most convenient place to debate, due to misinterpreted meanings, but I've seen it work better than this.
If we are ever going to have another debate of similar magnitude, it should be noted that yelling and screaming is not the answer, and everybody should try to work from that premise from the beginning. Also, if you include all of your details and evidence for any given argument the first time, it does not require 37 steps for each person to see what the other is saying. That's ~15 less times that you get aggravated at how the other person doesen't understand you, which also helps to keep it from becoming an argument. (yes, most(if not all) of us who participated made this mistake at one point or another)
Also, if an argument is not well supported, it's probably a good idea to try to find evidence for it, even if you are going to refute that evidence in another 3 minutes. This could reduce aggravation. I know it never crossed my mind at the time, but hopefully someone will remember it in the future.

However, despite the things that we all could have done better with, I would like to note that the debate didn't really spill over into any other topics or alter how we have acted towards eachother.

(Too bad that topic was closed, that was probably the best place for my post. But I suppose I wouldn't have posted this if it hadn't been locked.)

[DigiTan]

I agree this was one of my favorite threads. And I think it was partly my fault as well for dragging things off topic. But it's very inspiring to see people on both sides argue with passion without things getting too out of control--which happens alot on some other places.

[Arcane Wizard]

I agree with the closing of the topic, though not on the grounds for said closing.

I feel it was a petty thread anyway, good for a laugh, but in no way worthy of serious consideration.

And it was getting annoying, so thumbs up to the admins.

[62 52 53 53]

Ok, first of all, I think that religion, whatever yours is(yes, even atheism) is more important than just "good for a laugh." If people thought it wasn't how would the thread have kept going. There are many threads up there that I would consider much more petty than that one. And just because you may think a thead is petty does not mean that any decisions should be made based on that. Second of all, I fail to understand how it can possibly have annoyed you. The only time that it could have had any relevance to you was if you looked at it, and nothing said you had to look at it. I sure hope you are capable of not going out of your way to be annoyed. So if you aren't interested, fine, but your lack of interest on one little thread out of this whole big forum isn't anything I care about. However, I feel that your happiness at the fact that it's closed just because you personally weren't interested is very interesting.

[DigiTan]

I have to agree again. I think the religious debate is one of the most important topics I've seen here; more so than the earlier political topics. And we heard some very compelling arguments on both sides. It's only one thread, so it's tendency to annoy is trivial. I realize the admin was just looking out for board unity but it still seems the topic met an untimely death.

[Justin W.]

The administrator locked the topic as it was not on the original path in which it was intended. Religion is one's personal choice and I do not see it as something that is debatable. Who here thinks they have the right to say their religion is better than anyone else's? If you do think that, then you are very petty. I know that some people didn't like the passion of the christ, too gruesome, too real...

I support the administrators action 100%

[DigiTan]

* The "Are Dragons Real" thread strayed off topic we brought up the meaning of 'existance'.
* "The Good and Bad and the Ugly" strayed off topic after we started trying to figure out who Kerm Martian was.
*The "Basic Pi Calculator" thread went off topic when I couldn't decypher the GRAPH LINK symbols.
* The "Egyptian Temples/CPU" thread went off topic when we said societies repeat themselves.

If this thread was locked because it went off topic, then two words come to mind. "Special treatment." I realize that the Passion thread wasn't originally meant for orthodox/atheist theory, but the more I look at it, the more it seems this thread was singled out because of it's obvious "disagreeable" undertone. Discussions evolve. Who want's to talk about the same ideas over and over for 30 days? If this is the fate of each discussion that wanders away from the title, I have serious conscerns about the future of the marketplace of ideas here.

I'm not pointing fingers, I'd just like a reasonable explaination.

[AlienCC]

[Arcane Wizard]

[Jeremiah Walgren]

If you'd like a place to debate religion, Michael Vincent has a section at his forums for such a purpose. *click* (It's the section marked "Religion" for those who can't tell.)

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[Adm.Wiggin]

[NETWizz]

[DigiTan]

What happened here? This is supposed to be a community. The only reason the TI programming community thrives as it does is because of its free exchange of ideas. Through lively debate, and constructive critisisms. Just because we disagree on certain issues doesn't mean we have to resort to personal attacks on one another. When AlienCC closed the thread, I did not single him out for persecution. I did not cast him as the scapegoat. I calmly acknowledged that he was probably just looking out for board peace. And seeking answers, all I asked for a more detailed explaination.

Backstabbing:

JBirk, you should really learn to read my posts more carefully. My suggestion is that we leave those topics alone--in the spirit of free speech. I used to think we could debate as intellectuals. But clearly some of us are only out to draw blood. Your knee-jerk responce only exemplifies the type of intolerance and narrow-mindedness I discussed in The Passion. Rather than peice together a coherent reply to challenge me (which was appearantly too difficult ), you resort to cheap tricks. This move was cowardly at best.

Lies, Mis-Quotes and Slander:

If you would have waited another 10 minutes before going on your temper tantrum, you would have known that I was planning to apologize to the Admin in this post. But I don't appreciate being mis-quoted and slandered simply my views don't conform to yours. On the other hand, it goes against my personal credo to hold a grudge, JBirk, so I might forgive you for lying to everyone and trying to cast me as the scapegoat. People are smart; they will see through your lies.

Impulsive Censorship:

But if you must know, my main complaint is that the topic was closed with such whimsical timing. No verbal warnings were offered. No "PLZ stay on topic." No Privite Messages. No warning Email. No indication at all. By the time we knew it had gone "off-topic", it was simply too late to fix things. I find that rude.

The timing of this is also suspicious, since it clearly didn't become UTI's mission to lockdown "offtopic" threads until a strong religious perspective was presented. Then it became censorship all-around.

[Arcane Wizard]

[DigiTan]

I understand. Alien says it was off-topic so I'll just it at that. I'm just a bit upset that my name was slandered for no reason.

[DarkerLine]

A solution that seems not to have occurred to anybody:
Once a debate goes off-topic, the off-topic part could be moved to a separate "Debate" forum where posts wouldn't count (might improve the situation by lessening random posts) and the debate would no longer be off-topic. Failing that, to make a topic for the new topic switched to. This might work.

[Arcane Wizard]

I thought of asking to create a debate forum when we had the previous "oh noes teh topic has been teh closed!" situation and just put all debates there, but I remmber JBirk saying something about not even adding a games forum or several other suggestions for forums that would be quite on the whole calc/programming forum thing because it would clutter the board index.

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[DarkerLine]

My suggestion: this topic.